Comments on: Cinematics vs Gameplay: The Disconnect http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/ Games, Metal, Art and Reality. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 05:24:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Jordan http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-162 Jordan Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:18:07 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-162 @Conor, I'm not saying that Warhammer's coherency between cinematic and game is because that it is inherently different than WoW's.. I think WoW can be consistent with gameplay and cinematic, but they either have to change their gameplay so it matches their cinematic (huge change in gameplay), or change their cinematics to match gameplay (like Brittany mentioned, collecting hooves for a quest, and this would obviously make a boring cinematic). The Warhammer trailer shows PVP interaction and a siege of a city (both huge parts in WAR). This also happens in-game, and from what I could tell from Beta, is pretty consistent with the trailer (obviously not as flashy). While the WoW cinematic shows the WoW storyline.. who gets to engage with Arthas, who has now melded with the Lich King? Most players are going to be farming gold for mounts. I agree, there's definitely a miscommunication problem between developers and storytellers, and it really becomes apparent when a cinematic selling a game isn't close at all to actual gameplay. Preview buttons in comments now :P @Conor, I’m not saying that Warhammer’s coherency between cinematic and game is because that it is inherently different than WoW’s.. I think WoW can be consistent with gameplay and cinematic, but they either have to change their gameplay so it matches their cinematic (huge change in gameplay), or change their cinematics to match gameplay (like Brittany mentioned, collecting hooves for a quest, and this would obviously make a boring cinematic).

The Warhammer trailer shows PVP interaction and a siege of a city (both huge parts in WAR). This also happens in-game, and from what I could tell from Beta, is pretty consistent with the trailer (obviously not as flashy).

While the WoW cinematic shows the WoW storyline.. who gets to engage with Arthas, who has now melded with the Lich King? Most players are going to be farming gold for mounts.

I agree, there’s definitely a miscommunication problem between developers and storytellers, and it really becomes apparent when a cinematic selling a game isn’t close at all to actual gameplay.

Preview buttons in comments now :P

]]> By: Conor http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-160 Conor Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:00:59 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-160 Also, bro, let's get some preview buttons or AJAXified real-time previews or something! Verbose comments are scary here. But maybe that's a good thing. =P Also, bro, let’s get some preview buttons or AJAXified real-time previews or something! Verbose comments are scary here.

But maybe that’s a good thing. =P

]]> By: Conor http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-159 Conor Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:00:02 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-159 I'm not sure I've understood your analysis correctly. You say that Warhammer does manage to achieve riveting awesomeness in its cinematic, but this doesn't make it unique, because WOTLK has done that (for you), too. Right? So basically you must be saying that the good of the Warhammer model is in how its gameplay differs from that of WoW. If that's so, how can your gameplay analysis wind up more or less inconclusive? To me it all boils down to storytelling, and how the genre affords this. Aspects of gameplay define the genre. Pile gorgeous visuals in cinematics on top of this and you have a winning formula. There is no story to tell in WoW that engages the player, as you mentioned. The only way the Warhammer trailer you've posted is remotely stirring is that it plays up on PvP interaction, as well as strongly implies sexual tension. It's not providing a story; it's saying that you, the player, can easily exercise agency in the creation of your own story within the rich narrative skeleton of this game. I highly doubt the real game makes good on those promises. WoW has no real narrative. It's not an RPG, not at all. All great RPGs necessitate a dungeon master. Failing that, they've got to really focus on the single-player aspect of how the story gets told, because otherwise the intimacy inherent to storytelling will be lost, as will the player's emotional involvement with the state of the gameworld. I don't think that human artisanship has scaled at a rate comparable to technological innovation. We now have frameworks that afford the transmission of storytelling on a scale we haven't dealt with yet. Honestly, I don't think most people, Blizzard included, understand how the concept of the narrative functions in the human mind. I don't think we've figured out how narrative simultaneously stimulates passions of individual agency and communal purpose. Ask Solzhenitsyn or Nabokov or Dickens. They might know what to do here, but they might not. Figuring this out will be a revolution in game design, and quite possibly much more beyond that. I’m not sure I’ve understood your analysis correctly. You say that Warhammer does manage to achieve riveting awesomeness in its cinematic, but this doesn’t make it unique, because WOTLK has done that (for you), too. Right? So basically you must be saying that the good of the Warhammer model is in how its gameplay differs from that of WoW. If that’s so, how can your gameplay analysis wind up more or less inconclusive?

To me it all boils down to storytelling, and how the genre affords this. Aspects of gameplay define the genre. Pile gorgeous visuals in cinematics on top of this and you have a winning formula.

There is no story to tell in WoW that engages the player, as you mentioned. The only way the Warhammer trailer you’ve posted is remotely stirring is that it plays up on PvP interaction, as well as strongly implies sexual tension. It’s not providing a story; it’s saying that you, the player, can easily exercise agency in the creation of your own story within the rich narrative skeleton of this game.

I highly doubt the real game makes good on those promises.

WoW has no real narrative. It’s not an RPG, not at all. All great RPGs necessitate a dungeon master. Failing that, they’ve got to really focus on the single-player aspect of how the story gets told, because otherwise the intimacy inherent to storytelling will be lost, as will the player’s emotional involvement with the state of the gameworld.

I don’t think that human artisanship has scaled at a rate comparable to technological innovation. We now have frameworks that afford the transmission of storytelling on a scale we haven’t dealt with yet. Honestly, I don’t think most people, Blizzard included, understand how the concept of the narrative functions in the human mind. I don’t think we’ve figured out how narrative simultaneously stimulates passions of individual agency and communal purpose.

Ask Solzhenitsyn or Nabokov or Dickens. They might know what to do here, but they might not. Figuring this out will be a revolution in game design, and quite possibly much more beyond that.

]]> By: Jordan http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-146 Jordan Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:08:00 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-146 To put shortly, what I think it comes down to is both WC3 and WoW cinematics are selling a single-player story experience, and only WC3 can deliver on that. In the Warcraft Multiverse, being a nobody is lame. In WoW, you're a lvl70 mage. In WC3, you're THRALL, CHIEFTAIN OF THE HORDE. Good thing, though, in Warhammer, they sell you the, "you're nobody important, but you and your guild have the ability to move mountains" experience, which can be translated to both gameplay and cinematics. To put shortly, what I think it comes down to is both WC3 and WoW cinematics are selling a single-player story experience, and only WC3 can deliver on that.
In the Warcraft Multiverse, being a nobody is lame. In WoW, you’re a lvl70 mage. In WC3, you’re THRALL, CHIEFTAIN OF THE HORDE.
Good thing, though, in Warhammer, they sell you the, “you’re nobody important, but you and your guild have the ability to move mountains” experience, which can be translated to both gameplay and cinematics.

]]> By: Brittany http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-145 Brittany Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:17:46 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-145 Yeah, in WoW, it's not as if what we see in the trailer has anything to do with the gameplay at all...It's like whoa Arthas and sweet flying blue dragon thing but what *I'm* going to do is wind up collecting centaur hooves and raptor heads. Maybe if the trailer showed an orc dramatically chopping off centaur feet and getting a pair of boots in return it would work better :B Yeah, in WoW, it’s not as if what we see in the trailer has anything to do with the gameplay at all…It’s like whoa Arthas and sweet flying blue dragon thing but what *I’m* going to do is wind up collecting centaur hooves and raptor heads.

Maybe if the trailer showed an orc dramatically chopping off centaur feet and getting a pair of boots in return it would work better :B

]]> By: Matt http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-144 Matt Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:00:20 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-144 It seems to me is that the Warhammer world is just way more conducive to an MMO, due largely to their roots. Warhammer comes from the already decentralized setting of tabletop gaming; already Mythic had a world that by the very nature of the game had to allow for a million little stories, over which they had no control, that had to fit in to the overarching themes. WoW, by contrast, you're absolutely right about; the transition from RTS to MMO was bumpy and perhaps never quite handled right, or even further, incapable of being handled right, because the WC3 world was one with central characters that had an overbearing presence in regards to the minor units, both in story and gameplay. I think you're definitely right in regards to gameplay, too; WoW sort of stopped being an immersive world and started being a numbers game a long time ago. It seems to me is that the Warhammer world is just way more conducive to an MMO, due largely to their roots. Warhammer comes from the already decentralized setting of tabletop gaming; already Mythic had a world that by the very nature of the game had to allow for a million little stories, over which they had no control, that had to fit in to the overarching themes.

WoW, by contrast, you’re absolutely right about; the transition from RTS to MMO was bumpy and perhaps never quite handled right, or even further, incapable of being handled right, because the WC3 world was one with central characters that had an overbearing presence in regards to the minor units, both in story and gameplay.

I think you’re definitely right in regards to gameplay, too; WoW sort of stopped being an immersive world and started being a numbers game a long time ago.

]]> By: Will http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/2008/08/28/cinematics-vs-gameplay-the-disconnect/#comment-143 Will Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:40:50 +0000 http://www.robotsneedlovetoo.com/?p=63#comment-143 I definitely know where you are coming from this as I have been feeling the same thing. In terms of Blizzard cinematics I have been wowed by them since the beginning of time. They have always been grand and well done after the initial WoW cinematic they let me down. In WC/Diablo games the cinematics were part of the story, summing up your last campaign and moving the plot forward but even the first WoW cinematic strayed from this but not on such a grand level. I still wanted to participate in this game after seeing the classes and races displayed engaging in city burning or one on one battles in the mountains but while conveying a little information about the story still felt like a game. They strayed from this in the BC cinematic by just putting in amusing things (polymorph, blastwaving murlocs SO FUNNY RIHGT?) but who is playing this game that doesn't know about the betrayer that he needs his own introduction in the cinematic and I feel the same goes for Arthas. On the other hand EQ didn't have any cinematics and I still feels beats WoW hands down as it promoted teamwork and knowing your class and class interactions infinitely more than WoW and other MMOs that have been made since while trying to cater to the casual gamer, something I think WAR addresses well by adding a sense of community back into the game. I definitely know where you are coming from this as I have been feeling the same thing. In terms of Blizzard cinematics I have been wowed by them since the beginning of time. They have always been grand and well done after the initial WoW cinematic they let me down. In WC/Diablo games the cinematics were part of the story, summing up your last campaign and moving the plot forward but even the first WoW cinematic strayed from this but not on such a grand level. I still wanted to participate in this game after seeing the classes and races displayed engaging in city burning or one on one battles in the mountains but while conveying a little information about the story still felt like a game. They strayed from this in the BC cinematic by just putting in amusing things (polymorph, blastwaving murlocs SO FUNNY RIHGT?) but who is playing this game that doesn’t know about the betrayer that he needs his own introduction in the cinematic and I feel the same goes for Arthas.

On the other hand EQ didn’t have any cinematics and I still feels beats WoW hands down as it promoted teamwork and knowing your class and class interactions infinitely more than WoW and other MMOs that have been made since while trying to cater to the casual gamer, something I think WAR addresses well by adding a sense of community back into the game.

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